Have you read The Maidens by Alex Michaelides and have questions about the ending? Need a plot summary for The Maidens? Want to discuss the suspects? You are in the right place, because this is my Spoiler Discussion for The Maidens.
Written and edited by Jen Ryland. Last updated on:
Table of Contents for the Plot Summary and Discussion of the Maidens
- Plot Summary for The Maidens
- List of Characters in The Maidens
- Approximate Timeline in the Maidens
- Clues Left in the Killer’s Chapters
- List of Suspects in the Maidens
- Who was the Killer in the Maidens?
- Spoiler Discussion Questions
- A Link to My Post About Crossover Characters and Places in The Maidens and The Silent Patient
- Movie Adaptations of The Silent Patient and The Maidens (opens a new page)
Please feel free to skip to the parts that you need and PLEASE join the discussion!
And PLOT TWIST Mariana appears (briefly) in Alex Michalides’ 2024 book, The Fury. Check out my review of The Fury with protected spoilers!
Plot Summary for The Maidens – Mariana’s Narrative
Mariana Andros, a therapist, is mourning her husband Sebastian, who died about a year ago. After a group therapy session one day, she confronts a participant, Henry, who is disrupting the group and behaving strangely.
Mariana’s niece Zoe calls. The body of a woman has been found in the Paradise Woods near Cambridge University, where Zoe is a student. Mariana offers to come. On the train to Cambridge, a young man named Fred awkwardly flirts with her. On the train, Mariana reflects on all the tragedies she (and Zoe) have faced. Mariana’s mom died when she was young, her sister and brother in law (Zoe’s parents) died in a car accident, Mariana’s father died of a heart attack, and Sebastian drowned fourteen months ago during a vacation they took to Naxos, a Greek island.
At Cambridge, Mariana goes to her former college, St Christopher’s, to look for Zoe. She runs into Julian, a former classmate and fellow psychotherapist. Mariana learns the the victim is Tara, her niece Zoe’s best friend.
How Does Mariana come to suspect Fosca of murder?
Mariana finds Zoe, who blames herself. Tara told Zoe that she was sleeping with a professor, Edward Fosca. Tara threatened to tell the college, and Fosca threatened her. Mariana urges Zoe to go to the police with her suspicions, but they say Fosca has an alibi and Tara has a boyfriend with a criminal record.
Zoe and Tara run into Fosca who claims that Tara was failing classes and told Edward if he didn’t cover for her she’d accuse him of sexual harassment. He denies being involved with her.
Mariana asks around about Fosca. He’s new, and an American. Mariana meets with her former tutor, Clarissa. She hears gossip from Morris, the college porter, about Fosca’s entourage of women and the group’s wild parties.
Mariana talks to Elsie, Tara’s “bedder” or assigned housekeeper. Elsie dislikes Fosca’s group of women and says they bullied Tara. Elsie seems suspicious of Zoe. Elsie agrees to let Mariana see Tara’s room, where Mariana finds a postcard of a Titian painting with a quote from Euripides about the sacrifice of a maiden, a nobleman’s daughter, to Persephone.
Mariana meets Fred, the man from the train, for a drink. He doesn’t think Conrad killed Tara and offers to help her solve the murder. But when he mentions visiting Naxos, Mariana is alarmed and leaves. Someone follows her home and she hides in an alley. She runs into Morris who lets her into the college.
The Killer of the Maidens Strikes Again!
Zoe calls Mariana and tells her another victim has been found. Fred and Mariana go to the site and see Julian, who offers to let her see the body. It is Veronica, slashed and holding a pine cone. Julian tells her that Conrad was in custody and has been eliminated as a suspect. Mariana finds Serena’s postcard from the killer, with a quote from Iphigenia by Euripedes.
Mariana has dinner with Fosca. He serves her rare lamb (more on that!) Fosca tells her that he has an alibi for the night of the murder. He thinks the murders are ritualistic and the killer is a showman. He leaves to make coffee and she finds a copy of Iphigenia with Serena’s postcard passage underlined. She is convinced he is the murderer and is taunting her.
Fred Says There Could Be TWO Killers!
Mariana asks Fred to meet her. She tells him about Fosca’s alibi and he suggests the killer could have an accomplice. Fred tells her to be careful. She receives a threatening, anonymous call and assumes it’s her patient Henry.
As she leaves for London the next day, she sees Fosca giving an envelope to Morris. She follows Morris and finds herself in an abandoned cemetery. Morris arrives and Mariana watches him and Serena have sex.
Mariana goes to London to see Ruth, her supervising therapist. She wonders if Serena and Morris are blackmailing Fosca. She feels like someone is following her.
Mariana meets with Ruth, who suggests she treat the Maidens as a group. She also asks Mariana if Fosca reminds of her father. Hmmm… daddy issues, Mariana? This bothers Mariana, who denies it. She suggests that Mariana speak to Theo Faber, a psychopathologist who was another one of her students. (And the main character of The Silent Patient.)
Theo Tells Mariana To Find The Maidens Killer’s Motive
Theo doesn’t like Julian. Theo also says that Mariana needs to figure out the killer’s motive. That the postmortem violence is staged and that the killer is calm and in control. Theo is looking for a job and Mariana suggests he apply for an open job at the Grove, a London psychiatric hospital. They briefly discuss Alicia Berenson, an artist sent to the Grove after the murder of her husband (more The Silent Patient references – when you’re done with this post, be sure to check out my post about The World of The Silent Patient and The Maidens)
Mariana returns from London to find her room ransacked. Mariana asks Fosca if she can hold a group session with the Maidens. At the session the group mocks her for not inviting Zoe, as she is also a Maiden. Mariana is shocked at this revelation but decides to confront Zoe later.
Mariana runs into Fred. He proposes and she asks him to leave her alone. Fred leaves and Henry appears bloody and holding a knife. Morris comes and overpowers Henry.
One More Maidens Victim, and Mariana is Next!
The next morning Elsie comes to Mariana’s door. Serena was found murdered. Also there’s a postcard outside Mariana’s door with a quote from Electra in Greek. Mariana sees Fosca standing in the courtyard and goes over and shows him the postcard. He translates the Greek as “the gods have willed your death.” Mariana goes crazy and starts attacking Fosca. DCI Sanger shows up with Julian. Mariana explains that she thinks Fosca is the killer. The girls are under his spell. He was clearly involved with Tara and killed the others to cover. DCI Sanger says Fosca was given an alibi by Morris. The police seem to suspect Morris. Julian says that Mariana seems paranoid and unwell. DCI Sanger orders her to leave Cambridge or face charges for obstruction of justice.
The police take Morris away. Mariana meets with Clarissa and Zoe. Zoe denies being a Maiden. She says she went to the folly for the initiation and was given a drink spiked with GHB. Fosca touched her throat with a knife and then hid it, but she got away. Zoe announces she has now received a postcard (with an image of Iphigenia) from the killer. Mariana is alarmed and wants to take Zoe to London.
Mariana Finds The Main Clue to the Identity of the Killer!
Mariana is in Zoe’s room and finds a typewritten note hidden in her stuffed zebra. It’s a love letter to Zoe from someone who says he wants them to be together. Mariana is positive it’s from Fosca. Zoe shows up and tells Mariana she is ready to go find the knife she saw Fosca hide. They head to the Folly by boat, ending up at a building with a swan emblem. Zoe pulls out the knife and tells Mariana they are going for a walk. Mariana shows Zoe the letter she found in her room. Zoe says Fosca didn’t write the letter.
Who was the serial killer going after the Maidens?
According to Zoe, Mariana’s husband Sebastian is the one who wrote the letter to Zoe.
Zoe says she and Sebastian fell in love and consummated their relationship when Zoe was fifteen.
Sebastian killed Mariana’s father when he discovered that Sebastian was involved with Zoe.
Sebastian told Zoe that Mariana was in the way of them being together and had to die. Also, with Mariana out of the way, Sebastian and Zoe could have her money. But Sebastian said they needed a distraction from Mariana’s murder, something to throw the suspicion from them. Zoe told him about the Maidens and he planned the Maidens’ murders as cover. But then Sebastian drowned and Zoe decided to carry out the murder plan without him. Zoe threw suspicion on Fosca by getting Mariana to suspect him.
Zoe says she’s now going to kill Mariana and frame Fosca.
Fred shows up. Zoe rises up with the knife and Fred stabs him. Zoe is about to stab Fred again but Mariana hits her with a rock. Zoe falls on the knife, screaming hysterically . Mariana calls the police (finally).
DCI Sanger shows up and tells her that Fosca got fired for sleeping with all the Maidens. Morris was blackmailing him. Zoe and Fred get taken to the hospital.
Mariana is left completely shocked by the truth about Sebastian. Zoe has a complete mental breakdown and gets put into the Grove. Theo is her therapist. Mariana refuses to speak to Zoe. Mariana visits Fred and thanks him for saving her life. Months later she receives a letter from Theo, asking her to come to the Grove. Mariana tears up the letter. She finally agrees to go the Grove and see Zoe.
List of Characters in the Maidens
Mariana Andros – a 36 year old therapist who lost her husband 14 months ago. She’s been the guardian of her college-aged niece, Zoe, since Zoe’s parents died when Zoe was 10-12 years old. Mariana’s mother died when she was a baby and her father died of a heart attack five or six years ago. Lives in Primrose Hill, London.
Sebastian – Mariana’s late husband.
Zoe – 20 year-old student at Cambridge University and niece of Mariana.
Henry – Mariana’s troubled therapy patient.
Fred – 29 year-old theoretical physics student at Cambridge. (See more about Fred in suspect clues.)
Clarissa – Mariana’s former tutor at Cambridge
Mr. Morris – the porter at St. Christopher’s College, Cambridge.
Edward Fosca – a charismatic
Inspector Sangha – investigating Tara’s murder.
Julian Ashcroft – a forensic psychologist who studied in London with Mariana.
Ruth – Mariana’s training therapist
Theo Faber – studied psychology with Mariana, now a forensic psychologist
Tara – Zoe’s friend and the first murder victim
Conrad – Tara’s boyfriend, who is initially arrested for her murder.
Veronica – an American student and aspiring actress. Second murder victim.
Elsie – Zoe and Tara’s “bedder” or assigned housekeeper
Serena – the third murder victim
The Maidens – a group of female students who meet with Fosca. Natasha, Carla, Diya, Serena, Veronica, Lillian
Approximate Timeline for The Maidens
When I was going over the clues in The Maidens one more time, I found an interesting one: the timeline.
36 Years Ago – Mariana was born and her mother died.
17 Years Ago – Mariana met Sebastian at Cambridge when they were both 19. At some point they married.
7-8 years ago – Zoe’s parents died and Mariana and Sebastian took Zoe in. (Mariana says Zoe was away at boarding school when her parents died and that after her parents died, Zoe “finished her adolescence,” so I’m guessing she was 12-13 when this happened.)
5 years ago – Mariana’s father died of a heart attack (or murder) AND according to Zoe, she and Sebastian consummated their relationship when she was fifteen.
14 months ago – Sebastian drowned.
October 7 – the date of the killer’s chapters. Mariana says that Zoe calls her “that night in October.” If Sebastian did write the chapters and died 14 months ago, he would have had to have written them two years ago.
Clues Left in the Killer’s Chapters
The killer has left us a lot of clues (well, a few) in his chapters. Let’s run through them:
The journal/letter that makes up the killer’s chapters is dated October 7 and seems to be published in sections. I talk more about this in the timeline section above. The events in question also take place in October.
The killer is male – he says his parents wished for a girl
The killer says “there is more than one of me.” Does this refer to an accomplice, or a case of dissociative identity disorder? Perhaps the latter, as the killer also describes being “split in two” and wanting “to be whole.”
The killer kept a brown leather journal when he was twelve, the year he “lost” his mother.
The killer lives on a farm with lambs that are slaughtered.
His father is abusive to him and his mother. The killer says his father “punished” him – possibly sexual abuse.
His father killed his beloved dog.
When he’s twelve, his mother says she is leaving and will send for him. She asks him to keep her secret. He is furious, and dreams of cutting off her head.
The night his mother left, he wrote in his journal. Today he noticed two pages were missing. They were destroyed because they were dangerous. So he possibly killed his mother, or told his father she was leaving, and his father killed her.
He declares his love for Zoe and says he had a premonition they would be together and that she was his destiny.
The letter is signed “X.”
Who is the Killer in the Maidens? My Suspect List
Mariana Andros. Lately I’ve read a fair number of Big Twist thrillers in which an unreliable main character/narrator is the killer. Mariana has a) ties to Cambridge and b) seems little unhinged. But her bio doesn’t seem to match the killer’s. And she’s a woman.
Zoe. I was suspicious of her as she seemed like the last person I was supposed to suspect. Also, Elsie seems to suggest Zoe is sketchy. But Zoe’s bio/timeline didn’t match the details in the killer’s POV chapters, as she was orphaned as a young child. Plus, Zoe just seems to me to be too petulant and inept to carry out multiple murders without getting caught
Edward Fosca. I mean, Mariana TOTALLY thinks he did it, but he also seemed like an obvious red herring. He does tell Mariana that his father “brutalized” his mother. And serves Mariana rare lamb for dinner.
Henry. (Mariana’s troubled patient.) His father abused him, he self-harms with sharp objects, and he had a knife. But I decided he was also a red herring.
Theo. Mariana’s former classmate. As the main character in The Silent Patient, probably not! But maybe…
Conrad. He also seemed like a red herring and eventually was eliminated.
Morris, the porter. No real clues connecting him to the crimes.
SUSPECTS I WAS STILL CONSIDERING:
Julian. Mariana’s former classmate, also a psychotherapist who is consulting on the murder. But we aren’t told anything about him.
Fred. He seemed to pop up all the time and that definitely made me suspicious. There were a LOT of clues that pointed to Fred:
- He repeatedly says he has “premonitions,” just like the killer’s chapters.
- He is a strong swimmer and diver and visited Naxos, where Sebastian was killed.
- When Mariana visits his room, it’s filled with pages and pages of “scribbled writing.”
- He tells Mariana that he’s writing something about his mother who “left him” (then he says she died) when he was a young boy.
- He tries to give Mariana some sort of letter, but she refuses to take it.
Spoiler Discussion Questions for The Maidens:
I had a long discussion with someone who argued that The Maidens had WAY too many unresolved loose ends and red herrings. I can’t disagree, so here we go with some of my questions:
Was Sebastian really the mastermind?
Zoe says so. But we only have her word for it. Is she credible? I’m not so sure.
Clues that suggest that Sebastian planned the murders:
Mariana says her father hated Sebastian and didn’t want her to marry him. Did her father think that Sebastian was in love with Zoe? If so, why didn’t he say something?
Mariana also says that after Sebastian’s death, she found out that he had some major debts that he’d hidden from her. So he needed money, was hiding that from Mariana, and killing her would have been a way to resolve both problem.
Evidence against Sebastian planning the murders:
Mariana really seemed convinced that she and Sebastian were happy. She says Sebastian wanted them to have a baby during the time he was allegedly sleeping with Zoe.
Could Sebastian really have carried on an affair with Zoe for FOUR YEARS without anyone knowing? Sneaked to Cambridge repeatedly to be with her?
Could the Greek police really have mistaken Mariana’s father’s death by strangulation as a heart attack?
Did Sebastian really write the killer chapters?
Up until the part he declares his love for Zoe, the killer chapters fit Fred much better. Do we KNOW that the pages in the zebra are really part of the killer chapters and not just from some random secret admirer that Zoe had?
Mariana immediately thought the “letter” to Zoe was written by Fosca. But she was obsessed with Fosca, who (maybe) was the one who reminded her of her father.
Could Fred have written the killer chapters?
He does fit the profile of the killer chapters the best. Maybe the killer chapters (up to the ones in the zebra) were written by Fred and he tried to give them to Mariana to confess his mother’s murder to her.
Could Fred have killed Sebastian?
Wacky, but bear with me. Fred is 29 and is presumably doing an advanced degree at Cambridge. What if he:
While a student at Cambridge, saw Mariana and Sebastian visiting Zoe, and also saw Zoe and Sebastian cheating on Mariana
Killed Sebastian in Naxos.
Followed Mariana to Cambridge to protect her from Zoe/propose to her? And his confession is in the letter her tried to give Mariana? THE ONE SHE DID NOT READ!
Did Zoe and Sebastian really have an affair?
Again, we only have Zoe’s word for it, and after she says it she has a complete breakdown. Could it all have been in her head?
Did Zoe and Sebastian sleep together more than that one time? Mariana says she and Sebastian used to visit Zoe “often” n at Cambridge (though if Zoe has been at Cambridge only two years and Sebastian died 14 months ago in August, I’m not sure that’s even possible.) Was he sneaking to Zoe’s boarding school to sleep with her? Was he going to Cambridge to meet her? Did Elsie know about this and that’s why she seems to dislike Zoe?
Zoe DOES seem fixated on Sebastian. Mariana talks about how close they were. After the first murder, Zoe says “I wish Sebastian were here. He’d know what to do.” Mariana wants to go back to London but Zoe tells her “Sebastian would want her to stay.”
Elsie clearly does not like Zoe at all. She suggests that Zoe is arrogant and rude.
Loose Ends I Would Have Liked Tied Up:
- Some kind of independent confirmation of either Zoe’s confession or of the author of the pages.
- What happened to the killer’s brown journal? If Sebastian wrote the killer POV, did he kill his own mother?
- Why did Zoe and Sebastian decide to frame Fosca?
- What was the letter that Fred tried to give Mariana?
- What happened to the rest of the killer’s journal (besides the pages in the zebra.)
- More details/ confirmation on the Zoe-Sebastian relationship.
Check out my post on Crossover Characters and Places in The Silent Patient and the Maidens!
So Theo and two other characters from The Silent Patient pop up in The Maidens.
Are you wondering if Mariana and Zoe are in the Silent Patient? I am here to reveal all!
My World of the Silent Patient and the Maidens Post has all the answers: I list the crossover characters and places in The Silent Patient and The Maidens, plus I made a joint timeline showing you how the books fit together. It’s spoiler free!
Movie and TV Adaptations of The Silent Patient and The Maidens. What do we know? Will either of them make it to the screen?
Join our Spoiler Discussion for the Maidens in the comments!
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Thanks so much for stopping by my Spoiler Discussion and Plot Summary for The Maidens – if you love discussing thrillers, check out all my discussion posts here on my Armchair Book Club!
Super random thought, but I just don’t get the role of Henry in The Maidens. I understand it makes the reader more uneasy, but why is his storyline important? His attack on her seems to have no effect on the rest of the book. Am I missing something?
Secondly, what about the book Fred was writing? I hope that comes into play in a later Michaelides book, but honestly I was expecting the end to come around and say that Fred had written “The Maidens.” I would’ve hated that, but it would’ve been nice to get some closure on it.
Lastly, in chapter 21 of Part Four, I had a massive feeling that Mariana was going crazy. Everyone around her was telling her just as much. I thought of it like the movie “A Beautiful Mind.” As the reader, we only saw Mariana’s side, and thus we wouldn’t be able to tell if she was truly delusional. As others have mentioned, I could’ve definitely seen Fred as a figment of her imagination. I’m still not entirely convinced he was real. Premonitions?? What was he trying to give her?
Thanks so much for your comment!
I agree about Henry. I think that early chapter with Fred is probably just to set up Mariana’s work as a group therapist which comes into play later. And that Henry is meant to be a possible suspect though not a convincing one to me as he has no connection to the victims.
Oh Fred! I think his book was supposed to be about physics or quantum mechanics? I wasn’t sure if he was a grad student (in which case he’d be working on a doctoral thesis) or a graduate of Oxford who’s hanging around writing this book. But I’d have laughed so hard if he was actually writing about the murders.
And yes, I agree that both Mariana and Zoe seem a little bit untethered from reality. I never understood Mariana’s weird obsession with Fosca and I wish the book had addressed that more. I also see that Fred could have been her imaginary friend. And I still think Zoe could have made up the whole affair. Either Mariana never suspected that her own husband was a cheater and cold blooded killer, or Zoe fantasized the whole affair.
If it is indeed true that Zoe did cheat with her own uncle, I still find it almost impossible to get past the fact that Mariana is a professionally trained therapist and thought her husband was a great guy and Zoe was a sweet innocent girl.
I’m not a big fan of this book, which (like many above) I thought drowned in red herrings while failing to develop its central characters. But I definitely think we’re supposed to believe that Sebastian preyed upon Zoe sexually and planned the murders: Theo, who becomes Zoe’s therapist, certainly believes that, and unless she’s fiendishly play-acted her entire psychic breakdown, it’s hard to see how she would deceive him.
More important, Zoe as both victim of and participant in Sebastian’s homicidal inclinations is an echo of the Iphigenia/Agamemnon myth, which turns out to be a thematic key. (Although it’s never explained who sent the postcards with the creepy Greek quotations, or why: Zoe’s not a student of ancient Greek, and Fosca has no motive for sending them.) Further evidence of Sebastian’s culpability (as you may mention elsewhere on this site): Agatha Christie’s ABC Murders, which Sebastian is reading on the beach in Naxos, is a book in which a killer conceals the murder he really wants to commit, and for which he has a motive, inside a string of otherwise motiveless murders.
It is, however, fairly important that when you are trying to frame someone for a murder he didn’t commit, as Zoe is apparently doing with Fosca, you make sure he doesn’t have an alibi for the time of the murder — especially when, as here, the police seem to have an uncanny ability to pinpoint the precise time of the murder, rather than a broad range of times, as is more realistic. So Zoe is apparently a monumentally incompetent enactor of Sebastian’s evil plan–just one of the many irritating things about the conclusion, IMHO.
Hi Deborah, Thanks so much for stopping by with so many interesting thoughts and points! Let’s discuss and anyone else feel free to jump in!
I agree that the book seems to want to portray Zoe as a victim of Sebastian, but I’m also not sure this “Svengali” defense works. Sebastian was dead and Zoe left to carry out his (their?) plan. I assumed maybe Sebastian was the mastermind and had planned out the Greek quotes and the victims, though I’m not sure how he did that while living London under Mariana’s nose. Was he always sneaking off to visit Zoe? It was hard to believe that whiny, childish Zoe could carry out all those murders without Sebastian to help her. She seemed like a complete wreck and I don’t think she was faking that.
Love your insight into the Iphigenia myth which is mentioned a lot – I guess that was a major clue!
I do mention the ABC Murders in my post about The World of The Maidens and The Secret Patient. I don’t think I’ve read ABC but another commenter on that post pointed out that in the book, a killer commits multiple murders to cover up the “main” one. Another big clue to the M.O. of the killer.
I still loved the overall vibe of this book. I wished that the ending had been better supported.
Totally agree with you Deborah.
How does Theo Fabre show up in Thw Maidens when he tried to murder Alicia in the Silent Pstient?
Hi Marilyn! I explain the timing in my post on the World of the Silent Patient and the Maidens, but in short, the two books overlap in time – Theo appears in The Maidens before he gets the job at the Grove treating Alicia. In the epilogue of The Maidens, he has taken the job and is treating Alicia. If you read that post linked above I go into a lot more detail!
yes
It’s such a horrible book and I’m thankful that I didn’t buy it. I won’t read anything else by this author. That’s for sure.
Sorry this one wasn’t for you. I hope your next book is one you enjoy!
My book club loved the Maidens. Plus there was a great discussion because your article helped me to create better questions. Thank you.
Hi Cindy!Thanks so much for coming to tell me that! Let me know what yourbook club is reading next…
So what happened at the end, did Marianna meet Zoe, or was it her room she went in to?
Hi Raaj,
Yes, I think that Mariana decides to go and see Zoe at the end.
Why didn’t Marianna wait for Theo to go to facilitate her meeting with Zoe? He went in his office with the red-headed woman and she goes to “the door” which we assume was to where Zoe was.
Connie, wow. That is an excellent question and it didn’t really register with me until you pointed it out. Theo specifically asks Mariana to wait in his office for a moment, and she seems to suggest she will, and then just goes in to see Zoe. I’d say she was going in to do Zoe harm or yell at her, but Zoe is in the rec room, which is supervised.
Anyone have a theory???
Did anyone think twice about the first interaction between Fosca, Zoe, and Mariana? Zoe mentioned needing to tell Mariana something and never did…. It was never revisited….. but seemed like a glaring clue that Zoe was kinda fucked up and was hiding a lot from the beginning…? Also was the story about the “initiation” all made up or does that not really matter? Looking forward to third book 😳
I’ll have to go back and look at that! I always thought Zoe was shifty and spoiled but didn’t see her as the murderer. Also, has he confirmed that his third book is set in the same world as these? I saw a post of his on IG that said he was writing a new thriller set on an island. I mean I guess Great Britain is technically an island but I wonder…
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but doesn’t it seem unusual that Mariana wouldn’t recognize Sebastian’s writing it he did pen the letter that was in the zebra? I had a hard time getting past that.
I thought the same thing but I checked and pretty sure the pages in the zebra were typed!!